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Two matters of fairness in our community (r)
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| starking018 | Date: Friday, 2016-09-30, 6:08 PM | Message # 1 |
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Colonel
Group: Friends
Messages: 395
Status: Offline
| I start this thread in order to discuss not just Korsakov's case, but also an important matter of fairness in our community.
In short, what can be understood from the video is that [Se]E-3 takes an Opel Blitz truck from D2 base and goes straight to the south and then at a certain point turns westwards, towards allied main base. The episode in question starts from about 7 minutes on in the video. Korsakov starts looking around towards both bases, but mostly towards D2 where there's better view. On this map you can see a truck from very far, about as far as the most distant artillery pieces that can be seen on the minimap. Korsakov also seems to be using the knife a couple of times, which has a good zoom. Winbean can be heard claiming that Korsakov hadn't seen the Blitz. He claimed to me that when Korsakov said "why are you in my main base?" at the end of the video Korsakov hadn't seen [Se]E-3 go in main.
The first time I watched the video I myself somehow didn't recognize the Blitz truck anywhere in the video. Then I downloaded a full resolution version using a program called youtube-dl. You can do the same using this command line:
or
The quality is still significantly degraded by compression and there are things which prevent us from seeing what Korsakov could have seen. The minimap comes up frequently, and the compression makes it difficult to see through it, and the spectator view often doesn't even show the horizon (note that the spectator view and the 3rd person view that the player has differ significantly!).
When I watched the full resolution video I saw the Blitz. It's not even very far away. I don't know why I missed it the first time. At about 18:25 round time remaining the Blitz appears on the screen between a wooden pole and a large bush close in front of Korsakov's truck. It appears that just before that time the Blitz was located near the D5 flag where it was mostly obscured from Winbean's spectator view by the small hill and bush at that flag. It is going south. Then from 18:17 the minimap is being closed and right at this moment the Blitz can be clearly seen in a turn to the right and it starts going towards allied main.
Imgur album: http://imgur.com/a/Fk8Ij
The Blitz can be seen on the video until about 18:11 and then the minimap makes it too hard to see it again.
Knowing the time and position of the Blitz I went back in the video. I did a test on the map, and measured how fast a Blitz moves (about 16-20 seconds to go the length of a side of a square on the minimap). That way I could calculate roughly where the Blitz would have probably been. I looked carefully and couldn't find the Blitz before 18:33. (Perhaps if Winbean keeps the original, uncompressed video it could be located earlier in the video there. Also, if someone can tell us at what time did E-3 spawn, when did he start moving and where, that would help, too.) However, looking at Korsakov's actions earlier in the episode and estimating the position of the Blitz it can be seen that Korsakov had many opportunities to see the Blitz, in all cameras. By 19:13, when Korsakov is first seen standing with the knife out the Blitz would have certainly come within viewing range. From 19:11 to 19:02 Korsakov continues looking in the direction of where the Blitz would have been at the time and would easily be able to see it.
As far as I can tell from the limited information, Korsakov may have simply happened to see the Blitz, its direction, and then went to a nearby truck to try to follow the Blitz. E-3 wouldn't have much of a chance to escape being followed - he literally ran into a corner. At the moment the Blitz makes a turn towards main it is not too far from Korsakov and it's easy to see, even in the video, so there's not a doubt in my mind about how Korsakov knew the Blitz ended up in main. Korsakov is later seen in front of a wall, probably using 3rd person view to look over it. I don't think there should be any suspicion about Korsakov's actions from 19:11 on.
If someone suspects something else, anywhere in the video, please tell us what it is. We could gather additional information and investigate.
Also, I want to let everyone bring up any other evidence you have. Robert mentioned a video where someone had a cheat on. But who? Please try to find the video and show it to us. I also ask specifically Winbean and E-3: did you witness and/or record anything else before this video which convinced you beyond all doubt that Korsakov is cheating? If so, please tell us or show us.
What's disturbing to me is that Winbean would give away Korsakov's location and E-3 would listen for it in TeamSpeak. This would be very unfair and unjustified, unless Winbean and E-3 were already 100% sure at that point that Korsakov had been cheating. As a matter of principle, if you are only suspecting someone of cheating, it is absolutely not OK to cheat that someone yourself. It's definitely against the rules, too. I want to make sure that nobody is under the illusion that it is OK. I think you also know that it's possible to gather evidence of a cheat without you cheating.
I'll also say that I'm not an admin and I respect and am thankful for the many helpful and good things they do for us. I believe that the matters I bring up are very important for the health of the community. We have to do these things right.
PS: As for having high scores, I think there are people who are capable of playing (fairly) even a lot better than what we ever see on our server. Such people are rare, but I believe one should be happy for every opportunity to play with fair players who are stronger than oneself. I would be very careful in claiming that something is impossible.
Regards,
Air Troll, a.k.a. starking018
Air Troll a.k.a. starking018
Message edited by starking018 - Friday, 2016-09-30, 8:35 PM |
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| marduk | Date: Saturday, 2016-10-01, 7:25 AM | Message # 2 |
 General
Group: Admins
Messages: 1681
Status: Offline
| So much energy for such an issue...
You caught me: sometimes I am not a fair admin!
...and this is no democracy, it is a gaming community and when somebody pisses me and (!) other admins and players off we ban him. Which happened less than five times in six years.
Means: somebody who gets banned from me definitely pushed it himself too.
This is a gaming community. People come here to relax. If you start an argument you will get kicked.
Quid pro quo.
Marduk aka Postduk
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| Endless_Nameless | Date: Saturday, 2016-10-01, 10:49 AM | Message # 3 |
 General
Group: Admins
Messages: 1237
Status: Offline
| As an objective spectator (I've barely played with Korsakov in the past), this video shows absolutely no evidence of him cheating. If this is all evidence I don't see how a perm ban is justified.
About his score: Some people just are really good at this game, here are some scores by Optimus who has some really ridiculous ones:
52:1 (Berlin Outskirts)
45:1 (Zitadelle)
38:1 (Pegasus)
33:1 (Nordwind)
26:1 (Edson's Ridge)
21:1 (Midway)
37:2 (Bizerte)
...
I could post another 10 to 20
Is he also a cheater?
@Korsakov: I have a homework for you: Why don't you record a couple of full rounds where you score really high and show us all how you do it? I think this could help a lot to earn some trust back and we might learn something, too.
My Youtube Channel
aka eYe.ris
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| marduk | Date: Saturday, 2016-10-01, 11:13 AM | Message # 4 |
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General
Group: Admins
Messages: 1681
Status: Offline
| @endless: leave out the tank maps, it is less hard to reach such scores as a tank driver.
Quote:
"@Korsakov: I have a homework for you: Why don't you record a couple of full rounds where you score really high and show us all how you do it? I think this could help a lot to earn some trust back and we might learn something, too."
Sounds fair to me.
This is a gaming community. People come here to relax. If you start an argument you will get kicked.
Quid pro quo.
Marduk aka Postduk
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| sonikglight | Date: Saturday, 2016-10-01, 11:37 AM | Message # 5 |
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Private
Group: Recruit
Messages: 155
Status: Offline
| If the audio file was fixed, it really does show him cheating but I'm not going to full page report about that, he has been caught cheating.
By calling out the enemy position really but. This should stop now.
just trying to keep the server clean of cheat those that plays fair.
sonik9speed aka Winbean aka Winlite
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| Xenanab | Date: Saturday, 2016-10-01, 11:57 AM | Message # 6 |
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Colonel
Group: Silver Donator
Messages: 465
Status: Offline
| I also agree on eYe and Air Troll that the video hardly proofs anything.
Quote Endless_Nameless (  ) @Korsakov: I have a homework for you: Why don't you record a couple of full rounds where you score really high and show us all how you do it? I think this could help a lot to earn some trust back and we might learn something, too.
That sounds like a great idea!
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| marduk | Date: Saturday, 2016-10-01, 12:20 PM | Message # 7 |
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General
Group: Admins
Messages: 1681
Status: Offline
| Should we draw in more "experts" and ask for their opinion?
Come on guys, lets stop this now. Endless worked out how to bring this to an end.
No more statements needed here really.
This is a gaming community. People come here to relax. If you start an argument you will get kicked.
Quid pro quo.
Marduk aka Postduk
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| sonikglight | Date: Saturday, 2016-10-01, 12:29 PM | Message # 8 |
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Private
Group: Recruit
Messages: 155
Status: Offline
| E = M C Square
sonik9speed aka Winbean aka Winlite
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| marduk | Date: Saturday, 2016-10-01, 1:05 PM | Message # 9 |
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General
Group: Admins
Messages: 1681
Status: Offline
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VpsWdfckHk
This is a gaming community. People come here to relax. If you start an argument you will get kicked.
Quid pro quo.
Marduk aka Postduk
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| Endless_Nameless | Date: Saturday, 2016-10-08, 8:41 AM | Message # 10 |
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General
Group: Admins
Messages: 1237
Status: Offline
| Here's a video from Korsakov: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9MrWu4Vb1wKVS1SMGM5Z29EdVU/view
Of course a cheater wouldn't upload video of him cheating but you can see his playstyle which explains why he can sometimes call out enemies even when they're on the opposite side of the map.
Not really the best material (FH and Vanilla gameplay) but one example: @21:08 he spots a tank which he can't see. Well a few seconds earlier he just saw it drive by and assumed it would go to this position.
Throughout you can see him often spotting things in the far distance (good eyesight) and he uses external cameras a lot which lets you see things behind walls etc.
I'm going to lift the ban, there's simply not enough material to support the chat accusations and his video partially shows how he does it legit.
My Youtube Channel
aka eYe.ris
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